I often am asked what loads I recommend for Remington 700 ML's with our 209 conversion kit. When I compose my reply I try to stick to generalities, because it doesn't matter much what I like, but what shoots well. And you can't know that without some serious range time. Thus I like what makes sense to me and my rifle shoots well.. but that is in my rifle. Will it work in your rifle? Really what matters is what delivers the damage desired to your target. Also here, I'm not an expert, but I consider myself fairly well read. So I stick to generalities that make sense to me and in developing loads for my rifles what I read seemed to hold true.
Lets handle this in a manner I learned from a wise counselor. In such matters there are typically not absolutes, but ranges. And I like to stick to these three: Good, Better, and Best. Of course if something is "Better or Best", it fulfilled the requirements of "Good" and did better or was the best. Also "Good" could probably be called "Good Enough." To keep it simple, I'll just stick with "Good" on this post.
For me, in regards to firearms, "Good" really means safe and effective. So owners of a Badger Ridge 209 converted Remington 700 ML we need to start by looking at what the Remington Owners Manual says about performance and safety in regards to bullets, primers, sabots, and powder. If you've never read the owners manual, you should! Right now! (Same is true for you Ruger 77/50 owners... read your manual!)
Excerpt below is from page two of the Remington 700 ML Owner's manual, "Safety is Critical to Performance" (I added the bold and underline for emphasis):
"A superbly crafted gun is only as good as the hands that hold it. You can never be too careful. Shooting accidents are often caused by careless oversights such as failing to control the direction of the muzzle, failing to fully engage the safety, leaving ammunition in the chamber or using improper loads. These oversights can result in the destruction of life, limb or property. There’s no calling back a bullet once it’s been fired, so it’s critical that you know the principles of safe gun handling and storage before you ever take your new Remington firearm out of the box.
The proper use and performance of your firearm depends on correct assembly and maintenance, so it’s critical that you familiarize yourself with the information in this instruction book. Even if you’re a veteran shooter with a collection of Remington firearms, take the time to read this literature. Not all firearms are the same. That means the first step in safe handling is to learn the features and requirements of your new Remington."
Ok, that's a lot of good stuff there, but lets emphasize that if you use an improper load you are making an unsafe act. You may get a way with it for a time... at least until you don't. I don't consider this "Good", thus it could never be "Better" nor "Best"
So what is an acceptable load? Well first lets see what the manual says about loading... and here we have to remember that the manufacturer of the rifle never tested it with powders like Blackhorn 209 that were not available while it was in production (the same could be said for many other black powder substitutes that came out after the 700ML was designed and tested). Back then there was essentially only black powder and Pyrodex.
Also there are so many good options out there for bullets, sabots, etc now that were not available then. Factor in that with our 209 conversion you have changed the priming method and breech plug and you should realize that you do need to run what it says through the filter of progress in regards to percussion caps, and powder. Please take the time to read the excerpt below.
Below is excerpted from Page 6 of the Remington Owner's Manual, please take the time to read through it... my comments will be in blue and italics
SPECIAL SAFETY RULES FOR MUZZLELOADERS
In addition to the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety, there are several guidelines specific to black powder guns that muzzleloaders must observe at all times to ensure their safety and the safety of others. The following is a brief overview of these guidelines. For full details, thoroughly read this instruction book.
MUZZLELOADING SAFETY RULES
1. NEVER smoke while using your muzzleloader or while near any quantity of black powder or PYRODEX.® (Same is true for any powder)
2. BEFORE LOADING, MAKE SURE THE FIREARM IS NOT ALREADY LOADED. To make sure it is unloaded, insert the ramrod provided with the rifle into the bore to the breech plug and note its position at the muzzle. It should be approximately 1/4 inch below flush with the end of the barrel if the rifle is not loaded. (Badger's Note: that is with the OEM breech plug, with our breech plug your ram rod should sit just above flush with the muzzle on and uncharged rifle).
NOTE: Nothing can be attached to the ramrod while using it in this way. USE ONLY THE RAMROD PROVIDED.
3. ALWAYS CHECK AND CLEAR THE FLASH HOLE THROUGH THE NIPPLE BEFORE SHOOTING. ALWAYS CHECK THE BARREL FOR OBSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LOADING AND SHOOTING. Before checking for an obstruction, put the safety mechanism in the ‘S’ position and open the bolt assembly and remove the percussion cap and residue from the nipple. Water, snow, mud or any other material can obstruct the barrel and cause barrel damage. (with a 209 conversion you must realize the same is true, but instead of caps and nipples we have primers, flash cambers and vent liners)
4. USE BLACK POWDER OR PYRODEX® ONLY TO LOAD YOUR MUZZLELOADING FIREARM. Never use even small amounts of smokeless powder, even if it is black in color. The use of any other propellant may cause injury or death to the shooter or bystanders and damage the firearm. (So by using other black powder substitutes you are operating under the engineering of the powder manufacturer, not the rifle manufacturer. If you read page 12 you will see why Pyrodex is OK... so you'll have to read and understand the same for whatever black powder substitute you may choose... like Blackhorn 209. )
5. NEVER EXCEED THE MAXIMUM RECOMMENDED POWDER CHARGE CONTAINED IN THIS BOOK. To do so could result in injury or death to the shooter or bystanders. (Pages 16 and 17 state 120 grains (by volume) as the max, older versions of this manual had a 150 gr by volume for the MLS or "Magnum" version... I recommend you stick to this safer, more conservative 120gr by volume max... also if you choose Blackhorn209 you see it's manufacturer lists 120 gr by volume max as well).
6. NEVER POUR POWDER DIRECTLY FROM A POWDER FLASK OR CONTAINER. A sudden powder ignition from a lingering spark could cause the entire flask to explode. Use an individual charge from a powder measure when loading your rifle. Read and follow your powder manufacturer’s procedures for powder storage.
7. NEVER USE THE WRONG AMMUNITION COMPONENTS. Only use ammunition components that exactly match the caliber markings on your firearm and are meant to be used together. Use only pure lead or Remington® brand loading components when shooting lubed conical bullets. Do not use any other lead alloys with lubed conical bullets as they may be too hard for proper and safe use in your muzzleloader. (so when you use other bullets you are no under the engineering of Remington, but your own or the bullets manufacturer... only use 451-452 bullets in a 50 cal rifle with black sabots... etc)
8. WHEN LOADING, BE CERTAIN POWDER, PATCHES AND PROJECTILES ARE IN THEIR PROPER
SEQUENCE AND THAT THEY ARE COMPLETELY SEATED AGAINST ONE ANOTHER. Serious personal
injury or death can result if space is left between them. To provide a reference mark for future loadings, mark the ramrod at the muzzle once a projectile has been loaded to the proper depth. NOTE: Be sure to recheck the ramrod mark if you change loading components or alter the ramrod. See Picture 13 on page 15. Never attempt to shoot out a projectile that is not firmly seated against the powder charge or does not seat to the proper depth. Remove these projectiles following the instructions on pages 18 and 19. (witness marks are key to safety!!!)
9. ALWAYS USE COTTON PATCHING. The use of non-cotton patching could build up a static electric charge possibly creating a spark that could ignite the powder.
10. NEVER POUND THE RAMROD. Black powder and PYRODEX are impact sensitive and could ignite from impact. Keep the ramrod directly away from your face or body. (Another reason I like Blackhorn209 is that detonation from impact is much less probable when compared to Black powder or Pyrodex... that is why you have to use full power 209 primers to set it off!)
11. KNOW THE RANGE OF YOUR FIREARM. Muzzleloading projectiles have a range of more than one-half mile.
12. IF THE FIREARM FAILS TO FIRE, BE PREPARED FOR A HANGFIRE. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and wait no less than one full minute before opening the bolt. A spark may have reached the powder without any sound. The rifle could fire at any moment during this minute. If the rifle does not fire within a minute, carefully follow the directions on how to handle a misfire on pages 15 and 16. (With 209's this is typically caused by failure to properly maintain the breech plug and vent liner... see our FAQ and owners instructions for our kits for more info here).
13. RENDER YOUR FIREARM INOPERABLE WHENEVER YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING. Never place the percussion cap on the nipple until just before firing and remove it immediately if you do not fire. Never carry or store a loaded firearm in a building or a vehicle. Unload it by firing it into a suitable backstop before returning to your vehicle, entering a building, crossing or climbing up or down any obstacle that may prevent you from keeping full control over the firearm, such as a fallen tree, fence, treestand or slippery area. Failure to follow this rule may cause serious injury or death to the shooter or bystanders.
14. BLACK POWDER LEAVES HEAVY CORROSIVE RESIDUES. A thorough cleaning and lubing are absolute necessities before storage and prior to loading and shooting. Follow the cleaning instructions starting on page 19. Always carry loading and cleaning equipment with you in the field. (Another reason Blackhorn 209 is better, no fouling, and a less corrosive residue that cleans up with standard gun cleaning solvents)
15. NEVER USE THE WEATHER SHROUD FOR REPEATED SHOOTING. It is intended for single shot usage. Always disassemble and clean the bolt assembly after shooting with the weather shroud. See page 22 for bolt assembly cleaning instructions. (Our 209 conversion totally eliminates this component)
16. WARNING: Discharging firearms in poorly ventilated areas, cleaning firearms or handling ammunition components may result in exposure to lead, a substance known to cause birth defects, reproductive harm, cancer and other serious physical injury. Have adequate ventilation at all times. Wash hands thoroughly after exposure.
WARNING: Failure to follow any of these muzzleloading safety rules may cause personal injury or death to the shooter or bystander and damage to property. Do not use a muzzleloader firearm until you fully understand and practice the Ten Commandments of Firearm Safety and the safety guidelines specific to black powder shooting, to your black powder firearm and to your black powder ammunition components. If you are unfamiliar with black powder firearms, seek professional instruction from a qualified organization such as the International Black Powder Hunting Association, National Muzzleloading Rifle Association, National Rifle Association or your State Hunter Safety program. If you have any questions about the safe use of a Remington® black powder firearm, write to us at Remington Arms Company, Inc., Consumer Services, P.O. Box 700, Madison, NC 27025-0700 or call us at 1-800-243-9700.
Ok... that's a lot of words there, but you really should read the entire manual and understand it... the only problem is that the OEM system had serious blow back and by using our conversion you must keep in mind that some of it has changed. So back to the original point, what is "Good" and what is "Better" and "Best"
For a Badger Ridge converted 700ML I think you could throw out #15, and summarize that the basic safety above could be condensed to:
1. NEVER SMOKE while using your muzzleloader or while near any quantity of black powder or Black Powder Substitute.
2. BEFORE LOADING, MAKE SURE THE FIREARM IS NOT ALREADY LOADED.
3. ALWAYS CHECK AND CLEAR THE BREECH PLUG and VENT LINER'S FLASH CHANNEL BEFORE SHOOTING. ALWAYS CHECK THE BARREL FOR OBSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LOADING AND SHOOTING.
4. USE BLACK POWDER OR BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTES ONLY TO LOAD YOUR MUZZLELOADING FIREARM. Never use even small amounts of smokeless powder
5. NEVER EXCEED THE MAXIMUM RECOMMENDED POWDER CHARGE of 120 grains (by volume)
6. NEVER POUR POWDER DIRECTLY FROM A POWDER FLASK OR CONTAINER.
7. NEVER USE THE WRONG AMMUNITION COMPONENTS.
8. WHEN LOADING, BE CERTAIN POWDER, PATCHES AND PROJECTILES ARE IN THEIR PROPER
SEQUENCE AND THAT THEY ARE COMPLETELY SEATED AGAINST ONE ANOTHER. USE A WITNESS MARK!!!
9. ALWAYS USE COTTON PATCHING or SABOTS MADE FOR YOUR CALIBER BARREL AND BULLET.
10. NEVER POUND THE RAMROD.
11. KNOW THE RANGE OF YOUR FIREARM. Muzzleloading projectiles have a range of more than one-half mile.
12. IF THE FIREARM FAILS TO FIRE, BE PREPARED FOR A HANGFIRE.
13. RENDER YOUR FIREARM INOPERABLE WHENEVER YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING. Never place the primer on the bolt nose until just before firing and remove it immediately if you do not fire.
14. BLACK POWDER AND MOST SUBSTITUTES LEAVE HEAVY CORROSIVE RESIDUES. EVEN BLACKHORN 209's LIGHT RESIDUE WILL PROMOTE CORROSION. Proper and thorough cleaning and lubing are absolute necessities before storage and prior to loading and shooting. Always carry loading and cleaning equipment with you in the field.
15. ONLY SHOOT IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA, PROPER RIFLE RANGE, ETC., AND WASH YOUR HANDS
Again, before you read on you really should read the entire OEM manual, with emphasis on Pages 12-17
But at this point I'm sure most have dozed off or skimmed down to the conclusion, and honestly that worries me... you really need to read and understand all of this before you try to load, prime, or fire your rifle... but here's what i think is 'at least good' for bullet, primer, powder selection for a Remington 700ML with a Badger Ridge 209 conversion:
GOOD (aka Good Enough)
- Lead round balls of appropriate sizel, with cotton patching, and proper lubrication (50 cal: 179Gr)
- Lubed conicals, Minet projectiles, power belts, bore-locks, etc (but probably not with Blackhorn 209 as they don't always get the best initial seal)
- Plastic sabots sized for the caliber of the barrel, with lead or jacketed bullets of a size that matches the inner portion of the sabot (200 to 400 gr) (work well with black powder or any black powder substitute)
- 2F (FF) or FFG black powder
- Pyrodex RS, TripleSeven, or other 'stinky chemistry' black powder substitutes
- Blackhorn 209
- Black powder specific 209 with any black powder/substitute (except Blackhorn209)
- Any non corrosive modern 209 shot shell (full power) primer with any black powder/substitute
Its not hard to do BETTER:
PRIMERS: Any standard 209 primer can work with our breech plug if properly tuned. Some folks play with primers after working up a load and have reported improved accuracy just by changing brands. Again your mileage may vary. But, hands down I've found the older copper standard CCI primers worked the best. Mostly because they always feed and have never stuck in a bolt nose on me. The new CCI 209's are silver and I haven't played with them much to endorse them. If I couldn't find the old copper colored CCI's I'd use Federals, Remington STS, or CCI Magnums. Anyways, I've had primers , even CCI magnums stick at low powder charges and require a dry fire to remove. Winchesters are the worst in our Remington 209 conversions as far as sticking in the nose. However, a dry fire has always removed any stuck primers for me.
My rifles shoot good enough, with my older CCI's, so I'm not fiddling with primers until I shoot through my stash: I'm sticking to what I know works.
Bottom line: Any Standard 209 shot shell primer will ignite any black powder or substitute.
POWDER: Any modern black powder substitute is better than black powder in my opinion. I found that Blackhorn 209 works the best: I get the best accuracy, faster velocities, no fouling between shots, and its easier to clean up. It does cost more, but sometimes that's how it is: quality costs.
BULLETS: You probably will want to stick with sabots and jacketed hand gun bullets; handgun bullets are designed to be accurate, and expand at velocities your muzzleoader will produce. There are lots of pointed hand gun bullets now like Hornady FTX's that have improved ballistic coefficients. There are also jacketed 'muzzle loader' bullets that frequently come with sabots that work well. 200 to 350 gr bullets are typically used in modern inline muzzleloaders with success. You may find that pointed bullets require special loading jags or their points get damaged and accuracy can suffer. My Remington's have always liked heavier bullets (250gr or more).
I recommend you stay away from .458 (rifle) bullets as they typically have thicker jackets and do not expand and perform as well at muzzleloader velocities. But if you can find .458 bullets that are made for a muzzleloader then you may have a great bullet.
I absolutely recommend that you forget round balls; they have horrible ballistics and poor performance in larger game, especially at longer ranges.
As for conicals, power belts, bore-loc's, minet's etc... I personally I've seen better results with sabots and good jacketed hunting bullet, but the conicals are an option, just not with Blackhorn209. I just have always done better staying away from them; I've read a lot of bad things about some of these as they don't have copper jackets that control expansion. However your rifle may like them. Blackhorn209 has trouble with these sort of projectiles that require the initial expansion of the powder charge to seal them to the bore... especially in a Remington 700ML. If you are using Blackhorn209 you should stay away from these and use sabots!
SABOTS: My rifles generally shoot the best when I use the largest handgun bullet I can get a sabot for in the rifle's caliber:
- In a 54, you can get purple sabots that let you shoot .50 caliber handgun bullets.
- In a .50 cal you can get black sabots that let you shoot .451-.452 hand gun bullets
- In a .45 cal i'd try for sabots that use .40cal hand gun bullets
Remember what I said about .458's above... you can get them to shoot well, but are they the bullets with thinner jackets that are made to expand? If so then if you can find sabots for them in your .50 you may have good results.
This approach is to insure the thinnest sabot petals. In general I've found the thinner the sabot petals the better the accuracy. I've read in various books that its because the sabot separates from the bullet 'cleaner' and quicker with thinner petals... I've also heard its because the thinner petals allow for better concentric alignment of the bullet to the bore. Honestly, thinner petals just seem to work; I don't claim to know why, nor do I really care because I've seen it prove out at the range.
This is counter to what some would like... ie the smallest diameter bullet, with the highest BC, going at the fastest speed (requires thick sabot petals). From what I've seen accuracy is all about thin sabot petals. And its accuracy that lets you reach out and hit distant targets. High velocity and fast flat shooters help at range, but only if they are accurate to start.
I know my 50 cal rifles shoot black MMP sabots with 45 cal bullets better than they do green MMP sabots with .44 cal bullets... or with harvester crush rib sabots... but not by all that much. I haven't proven this with my .54 yet, but so far it shoots purple MMP sabots with 50 cal FTX bullets very well. So well I don't know if I'm going to do any more development... I'll probably just use it as a loner/back up rifle and hunt it as is.
All that said, I have clients that swear their 50 cal rifles love the 44 cal bullets with green sabots. So your mileage may vary!
I have one 50 cal rifle that likes 250gr XTP's better than 250 or 200gr FTX's... I wish it didn't because I like the idea of slighly flatter shooting (of the pointed FTX). I still load it with XTP's when I'm shooting at deer... because that is what that rifle shoots best. At this point I think I'm rambling and you can see that we may be splitting hairs when it comes to BC's and velocities in muzzleloaders.
Bottom line: Stick with Sabots, handgun bullets, full power 209 primers, and Blackhorn 209 and you'll definitely be doing better and perhaps even best...
How do you get the best out of your rifle?
I suggest you take a few of the better options above, go to the range, apply the safety rules and procedures you find in the Owner's Manual and see what your rifle likes.
If you don't own any muzzleloading components yet, I encourage you to convert your Ruger 77/50 or your Remington 700 ML to our 209 kit, and pick up some MMP Sabots from us. Then go to your local sporting goods store and get a box of correlating size quality handgun bullets, 209 Primers, and Blackhorn 209 (along with standard black powder accessories like a powder measure, flask, starter, etc). Read the owners manual and the directions on your powder bottle. Then go to the range and work up your loads as they direct.
Hope this helps and sets you on a good safe path. Truth is that you have a lot of choices to make. In general, if you pick better components and work up per the manuals, you will probably quickly find out what works best.
Always follow the ten commandments of shooting and special muzzle-loader safety rules!
I just had my older Remington ML700 converted with your Badger Ridge 209 conversion kit.
I'm far from an expert on pellets: I use loose powder. Specifically Blackhorn209 (which only comes in loose powder). I've only seen 50Gr pellets myself. I'd never risk my life and limb on something I heard on the internet: 120gr by volume is the max for the Remington 700 ML/MLS per Remington's documentation.
I bought a used 700ML and started with 80 grs of triple 7 powder but was shooting low with original open sights with 223gr powerbelts. I live in Colorado and can't use sabots here so I'm looking for any information on non sabots that work best for deer or elk. I can easily switch powder to Blackhorn, but can't switch to sabots. (Wish I could). My rifle has not been converted to the BR209. Any help is appreciated.
Our conversion kit works great with all powders. Like you mention you have to use a powder that is compatible with your propellant, so if you are not using sabots, BlackHorn209 is not recommended.
I have owned the 700ML since they first hit the market. Shot many sabots through my gun using 2 pellets of 100gr with horrible results on accuracy. The plastic casing was burning up and causing the bullet to tumble. I then talked to hardcore muzzleloading guy and he told me the scrap all that and go to loose powder (Goex) and I used Hornady Great Plains. I used like 85 gr of powder and dead on accuracy with that setup. I switched to the Horaday FPB 350 bullet and 100gr powder with the CCI Mag caps and not one misfire. My point here is you need to find what works best for your gun. I will not switch to 209 primers as long as the caps are working fine for me.
Feel free to keep shooting what works and is safe. I'd wonder what bullets you were using with what Sabot... the Remingtons like 250gr or heavier bullets. Anyways, when you get your first misfire with the original leaky set up, I hope its at the range and not when you have a nice trophy in your sights! (I get calls from guys all fall who had their first misfire or two when a nice buck was in their sights). When you get tired of crud blowing back into your face and all over the place, are ready to simplify clean up, and go with a better more reliable system we'll be ready to help you!
I am interested in your 209 conversion kit hows the grouping after conversion Thank You Bruce
While we make no claims on accuracy, the kit does tend to improve it, as sealing up the leaky breech tends to produce more consistent pressure, which usually translates into more consistent velocity, and hence better groups. But really there are so many factors in accuracy, that we cannot make any claims.
3 years now with the 209 conversion. LOVE IT!!! I highly recommend it. I shoot 45 sabots with 100grs loose powder and at 100 yard 1"-1 1/2" 3 shot groups.
A few years ago I was given a Remington 700ML by my cousin before he passed away. I had never shot any muzzleloaders before then but have used many centerfires and I abhor inaccurate guns, no use for them. I received no manual with the weapon but read online that 100 grains was safe so thats where I went. I've always used 100 grains of Pyrodex (two 50 grain pellets) and Hornady 250 grain FTX or FTP bullets with their sabots. I still use the no. 11 percussion caps with good success. I installed a moderately priced 3x9 scope with mil dots when a red dot scope didn't pan out (the mil fots really help at extended ranges). Outside of the issue with the bolt retention screw I like this firearm and I'm often amazed at the accuracy it achieves, I've seen centerfires that aren't as accurate at 100 yards and if the nut behind the stock is doing his job the firearm can consistently produce 2.5 to 3" groups at 200 yards. The trigger on the weapon is pretty good as well, I've read descriptions of 5 to 6 lbs trigger pull but this one is around 3 lbs, and breaks clean, very pleasant. I have no plans to deviate from what I've been using but your suggestion about using the black sabots has me intrigued, I might have to give those a try. Thank you for the well written and informative article.
I purchased the conversion kit for my Remington 700ML
Sorry I didn't see this comment sooner. Primers stick in the nose in two different situations. The most common is spent/fired primers sticking in the nose. The instructions tell you how to deal with this: dry fire on the spent primer. The second strike of the firing pin loosens the stuck primer. Everytime I've had one balloon (typically winchester primers) a dry fire loosened it and it fell out. I even made a video with some sticking primers that shows this.
Happy customer here, reporting in on great success with the Cheddite CX2000 209 primers, that are readily available. I spent 5 minutes time reeming the breech plug, have had zero blowback, zero bulging in the primers. In fact all I need to do is tip the gun to drop the fired primer from the bolt face.
Thanks for the positive feedback. Those European primers are tricky to get to feed, swage, and seal. I typically recommend only US made primers: Glad you got them to work and are satisfied. Also, I've had a customer use a very similar load, and it worked fine when it was 50-60deg F while he was at the range. He then went out west, was in the mountains with a cold soaked gun, and the Blackhorn209 wouldn't ignite. I believe it was because the powerbelts don't seal as well as sabots. And Blackhorn209 needs to be fully sealed or it won't ignite... especially when its cold and it doesn't have a 100% sure seal. The trouble is that there are lots of variables, and one of which is that 'powerbelts' have many different versions with different features. Your mileage will vary: best of luck! Hope you bag a bunch of big ones!
oh... and 91 by weight of Blackhorn is too much... 120 by volume is max... and by my math you are 10 gr by volume over... nuts... can't be good, much less better or best.
I've had the bolt nose kit on my 700ML since it came out and it's great...except for putting the primer in place with my arthritic 72-year-old fingers! I drop a lot of them! Is there any kind of gizmo, a capper, to hold the primer and make it easier to put in place?
I don't know of any tool that would do what you are asking. One of the design goals was to not require any tools to prime/de prime. To remove the primer I usually just roll the rifle on its side and catch them as the fall out. But you got my wheels spinning as I have arthritis, but no so many trips around the sun....
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