AKA How Trying to Make Oranges Out of Apples Gives You Lemons
In the course of answering questions about the Remington 700 ML/MLS 209 Conversion kit I've been getting some reoccurring questions. I updated the FAQ and realized I wanted to say more here as well.
Q: Have you considered making a Remington 700ML conversion that can use a 45 ACP primed case instead of a 209 primer?
A: "Yes, but in the end it didn't make sense and did not make it off the drawing board."
Q: Then why does Remington use a 45ACP/30'06 like primed case in it's new 700 Ultimate muzzle-loader?
A: "The 700 Ultimate is an entirely different rifle from the 700ML. Those cases have head diameters that are too big for a proper breech plug in the 700ML. Primer carrier ignition has been done in the 700ML with smaller cases like the 25ACP and 32ACP, but the kit would cost more to produce. What would anyone gain over what our current kit does with easily obtainable standard 209 primers? The only answer is that one who is set up to reload could save a small amount by using Magnum Rifle primers. Saving a little on primers with added complications like de-priming and re-priming hard to find cases isn't for everyone. So, it did't make sense to produce a cartridge based primer carrier kit. A simple, solid, effective, reliable kit is what we sell, so we are sticking with just a 209 kit."
Q: What about 209 shaped primer holders that use Magnum Rifle primers (the holder is reusable)?
A: "Not worth it in our opinion. They would require fitting to seal the breech properly, and add another level of complication for a very low savings. That savings is only achieved after many firings (you have to buy the 209 magnum primer adapter then factor the savings over the price difference between magnum primers and 209's). The use of standard 209 primers is effective and simple."
A complete detailed answer:
First, one can not compare the 700ML to the new Remington 700 Ultimate (AKA 700 UML, or 700 UM). That is plainly apples to oranges. Remember that the 700 Ultimate was designed to use more powder, and shoot farther more accurately than other muzzle loaders. It was a ground up design based on custom guns with this goal. It uses a standard 700 action (its a modern fire arm that requires 4473's and whatever else your state requires legally buy it from a gun dealer). From what I've read it is an awesome muzzle-loader; but it does this with a trade off in cost, length and weight (and complexity from where I stand). With the 700ML we are trying to leverage a readily available, out of production, slightly flawed rifle, that is shorter and handles well: and modify it into a great rifle. The 700 Ultimate is around double the cost of a 700ML with our conversion kit combined!
Also, would you compare the Savage 10 ML-II to the 700 Ultimate? To answer that you get into smokeless powder muzzle loading vs black powder (the 700 Ultimate is a black powder only rifle). So that's apples to oranges again. Apples to apples is comparing our originally leaky apple (the 700ML) to the more expensive, more capable, but not leaky apple (the Savage 10 ML-II). Our kit makes our apple better, but still a black powder rifle, and gives up on turning an apple into a lemon.
The real issue is, if you made a cartridge case based system work in the 700ML (and it can be done) what do you gain over our conversion kit and 209 primers? We concluded: "Nothing except being able to buy and stock less expensive magnum rifle primers." What do you lose? Conclusion: "Simplicity." Not a good trade from where I stand: lemon.
So while in the design phase of a case based primer carrier solution I reached the conclusion that it doesn't make sense in the 700ML. It boils down to: the 209 system Badger Ridge offers is simpler, effective, less expensive, and seals the breech just fine. I shoot 209 primers with BH209 without a problem why re-invent the wheel? So just go buy our kit... oh you want more... OK read on:
Second, the diameter of the 700 ML OEM barrel's breech is too narrow for a strong, simply removable breech plug with a .45ACP/30'06 case head. The guys who have made the cartridge case carrier system work for the 700ML tend to use .32 ACP and .25 ACP due to their smaller case head. Those cases are hard to find, cost a bit more, and require the shooter to be a re-loader, have hard to find dies, not so common shell holders to size/de-prime and re-prime. You also have to get the head spacing just right between the case web and nose of the breech plug to get consistent flash through the breech plug and into the powder charge. Definitely the realm of the motivated tinkerer. Randy Wakeman recently told me that in developing the 700 Ultimate from its custom gun roots, Remington changed the case to breech interface a little in the ultimate to improve this, and thus you can't just use any case and its easiest just to get the right ones from Remington. He mentioned that to make them 'right' yourself that the case web and primers flash hole had to tweeked. That was definitely a concern of mine as I drafted the plans for a cartridge carried based system. Not insurmountable by any means, just more costly and complicated. Again making that work in the 700ML is the realm of the tinkerer.
Truth be told, every deer I've shot at with my 700ML was hit and killed. The only ones I didn't take a shot at were to far away for 'me' to take a shot at in those conditions (about 200 to 350 yards); Will changing the priming source increase range or accuracy? I'm convinced it will not. What does it gain me beyond using marginally cheaper primers in a much more costly and complicated system? I cannot think of one legitimate thing. Some would argue the case based systems seal the breech against elements better. I've hunted in the rain and didn't have a miss fire. With our 209 conversion kit, the 209's seal the blow-back in and the elements out.
And as for using our kit with the hard metal primer carriers that allow you to put a magnum rifle primer inside to shoot from a 209 system; you'll have to do some precision work to tune them to our breech plug or the breech plug to them in order to get them to seal properly. As designed, the 209 conversion kit we sell and install swages a 209 primer slightly to get a sealed breech; I doubt the hard metal carriers will swage satisfactorily. Using the feeding action of the bolt to swage a standard 209 into the breech plug and then discarding the discharged 209 is simple and effective.
KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid
Consider all the issues with the case type primer carriers. Then factor in that our 209 system (as developed by Fred) is already an effective, simple to maintain, cheaper to make/buy, no reloading equipment needed, sealed breech system that uses the OEM breech plug wrench (or a standard 7/16 socket).
For all these reasons we decided our 209 sealed breech system comes out ahead, and dropped development of a cartridge case based primer carrier system before even turning the first part. Figured we were on the path to turning an apple into a lemon during our quest for an orange.
Check out the YouTube video below of our system in action. We think you will agree that the mission has been accomplished.
I, just like every shooter I know, grew up shooting smokeless powder.
Other than accompanying my dad to the range and again on a very frigid muzzle-loader hunt one December (before I was old enough to hunt on my own), I didn't really have any exposure to black powder rifles. And besides my dad used Pyrodex so that wasn't a real black powder experience... according to the purists I knew.
Black powder was just a footnote in my hunter safety class. My first interaction with 'real' black powder was when I took my model rockets to my Grandfather's farm. Yup, that’s Badger Ridge. We were having trouble getting consistent ignition on the rockets via the standard “solar igniters”. My Grandfather told me to hold on; he’d be back. He left me and the rest of the family in the hay field with all the gear I hauled up. He came back with a tin of FFG Goex, filled the rocket nozzle with it, inserted the solar igniter and sealed it with some scotch tape. My problems with consistent ignition on my model rockets was solved with a bit of Grandpa's extra smokey oomph! Too bad my mom wouldn't let me do that anywhere else but at Badger Ridge. My Grandpa also was known to have saltpeter and blasting cap solutions to stubborn stumps.
(But as usual I digress, and am forced to put in some sort of disclaimer: Badger Ridge does not recommend nor condone the use of flammable firearms propellants for purposes out side of the legal purpose they were designed for. Always follow the manufacture's instructions and all safe practices... OK I feel better now.)
Before I shot my first muzzle-loader I had put thousands upon thousands of smokeless rounds down range. Albeit most were .22LR via my participation as a small bore competitor; I did my share of shooting service rifle as well. All those rifles got cleaned regularly with standard gun cleaning products. So when I found out I had to use soap, water, and stuff that smelled like wintergreen to clean and protect my muzzle-loader I had a bit of an adjustment to make. But I did it; I made up a special muzzle loader tool kit with all the necessities so that I could grab it and be certain I had what I needed to take care of my 700MLS.
I smelled the stink of Pyrodex with my dad, and a similar but weaker stink when I first started muzzle loading on my own with Triple Seven. I never got nostalgic about the stink and non petroleum based cleaners I put to work on cleaning my rifle. To me shooting should smell like nitro cellulose (smokeless powder). So while I never got nostalgic on the stink, I will admit I thought about rubbing bore butter on to 'freshen' myself after a few days of hunting.
I honestly found it difficult to clean with soap and water at the more rustic hunt camps. It down right sucked to get all wet when it was so cold outside. I knew my breech loaders didn't need the urgent clean up, and could be made good with a few patches of Shooters choice or Hoppe's and bit of oil. That all changed, and things got back to normal once I discovered Blackhorn 209.
See, all other black powder substitutes that I know of use stinky chemistry that just doesn't work with modern petroleum based gun cleaners. Other black powder substitutes tend to have sulfur in them (which stinks) and need plain old soap and water to clean up.
Black powder chemistry doesn't do well when burning in the presence of petroleum oils and greases. I always thought about the incompatibility of anti-seize and black powder; so I worked to keep the two separate but they were always in close proximity on my breech plugs.
But Blackhorn 209, uses the same chemistry (nitrocellulose) as smokeless powder. Hoppe's # 9, Shooters Choice, Break-Free CLP, Mobil1, or whatever your favorite bore cleaner and oils work just fine with it. Also it's residue is not inherently corrosive, or at least no more than normal smokeless powder. So I don't have the same sense of urgency in cleaning that muzzle loader. Remember though, the residue is hygroscopic... or in other words it attracts water from the air. And water on a metal promotes corrosion. So you do want to clean your rifle, just not quite as urgently!
Remember my separate gun cleaning kit for my muzzle-loader? It got merged with my normal gun cleaning box and that’s that. But that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Those other powders foul and leave deposits that are not only corrosive, but gummy messes. Though I do have to acknowledge that my experience with Triple Seven confirmed it was better than what I had seen with others who used black powder or Pyrodex. But Blackhorn 209 blows them all away. No more fouling than what I've seen in my smokeless guns. Never any trouble pulling my breech plug, though I still use a bit of anti-seize on it. No swabbing between shots at the range. No changes to accuracy as the rifle fouls itself into a constricted mess (Triple Seven was an improvement here too).
About the only thing you still shouldn't do is leave your muzzle-loader charged for a while or go a long time with out cleaning (see the picture for a breech plug that was in a rifle that was fired multiple times and then left charged for about 8 months). The 416 stainless steel plug in the picture came out just fine with no trouble, but it had some surface pitting. It was cleaned and scrubbed with steel wool before the pic below was taken. Any other powder would have wrecked that rifle and froze the plug in the breech.
Breech plug left in a rifle fired with multiple shots of BH209 and then left charged with Blackhorn 209 for 8 months before it was pulled. Never leave any muzzle loader charged for a long period, even un-fired powder can promote corrosion. I can't even imagine how it would look if any other powder residue was left on it for 8 months.
But it gets even better. You see Blackhorn is safe to use in modern inline muzzle-loaders and it gets more velocity in that same black powder safe pressure range.
In modern inline muzzle loaders it can be used volumetrically the same as black powder. A by volume charge of Blackhorn 209 will give you more velocity (all other things being equal) than black powder or other substitute. Though I think it is important to note that the BH209 load data stops at 120 Gr, (see the picture of the back of the bottle). So I stop working up loads at 120 Gr. Even in my muzzle-loader is rated for 150 Grains (the 700 MLS "Magnums" were rated for 150 grains of black powder by Remington). I figure discretion and safety rule, so I don't go over 120 grains. You can read more about that on the BH209 site (they recommend a max of 120 gr by volume).
But BH209 gives more velocity for the same volume of powder. I don’t fully understand all the physics of powders burning and pushing projectiles, but I understand more velocity equals more energy and a flatter trajectory. I don’t think you have can too much of either of those.
I need to make it clear. I don’t have stock in Western Powders (the makers of Blackhorn 209) nor am I getting any money from them. I just love the product.
But in everything in life there are trade offs. The first trade off for Blackhorn 209 is its price. Outside of finding it on sale, you’ll almost certainly pay more for a container of it than any other black powder substitute. Also the jug that is about the same physical size as a 1 lb jug will only have 10 oz (by weight) in it. But seeing 100 grains by volume of Blackhorn 209 weighs only 70 grains one could do some math to get volumetric equivalents and find that 10 oz by weight is roughly equal to buying 14.3 oz of black powder, so still more expensive but less significantly when one looks at it volumetrically.
One last drawback is that some state's rules for black powder hunting don’t allow black powder substitutes or may have wording that cause people to worry that Blackhorn 209’s ‘nitro cellulose chemistry’ would put them in jeopardy of violating the law.
For instance in Michigan, where I frequently hunt, muzzle-loaders are not allowed to be charged with smokeless powder for hunting. But the regulations say that “Black Powder Substitutes” are allowed. One look at the Blackhorn 209 label shows that it’s "High Performance Muzzle-loading Propellant". No where on it is it called "smokeless propellant." Thus, it is a black powder substitute with the same combustion classifications as other black powder substitutes. So to me, Michigan regulations are clear; BH209 is allowed. I use it without concern in Virginia as well.
Some other states are not as clear. I've read that folks who have written their state's regulatory agencies for clarification, get obtuse, bureaucratic, indefinite replies. So beware and research the rules in your state.
Nevada has stated its not allowed there; though I think their logic is faulty. BH209 is chemically nitro cellulose (so is smokeless powder) but BH209's low pressure performance, design for volumetric equivalence to black powder, and combustible status ("Propellant Solid") is the same as black powder. Smokeless powder has to be labeled 'smokeless powder' so that you don't use it in your black powder gun and blow it up. I think anyone who reloads would get the difference and recall every can of smokeless powder being labeled "smokeless powder". And once you figure in BH209 is safe in black powder cartridges for those old black powder only breech loaders, how could BH209 be anything but black powder substitute? The law should care about performance not chemistry. So I don't get the hang up.
Also the stuff is just plain safer as its harder to ignite than black powder. So why ban it? Are you against progress? The entire line of thinking that makes BH209 "bad" seems to have parallels to the purists that think that muzzle-loading should be restricted to 'real' black powder, side locks, flint locks, patched balls, and buck skins. I'm having flash backs to when Pyrodex first came out... anyways back on topic: If you want to know more read this. And you can read more here as well.
The last trade off is ignition. Like I said BH209 is harder to set off (and thus safer) than black powder and its other substitutes. So, you need a real honest to goodness 209 shot shell primer to ignite Blackhorn 209. Those “Black powder” 209 primers are really primers with less ‘oomph’ as black powder and its stinky substitutes need less ignition heat to set them off. So you can get away with using a lower powered primer with them. But not with Blackhorn 209; it has to be a real full power, designed for a shot-shell, 209 primer. (I understand that guys using brass cases to feed their ‘Remington 700 Ultimate’ type breech plugs use magnum rifle primes as well, but that is outside the scope of this Badger's Den).
So if you have a standard 700ML without a 209 conversion, BH209 won’t work. Or if you have one of the leaky breech 209 mods for the 700ML, Western Powders doesn't recommend you use Blackhorn209 (just read the back of the bottle). You probably won't get proper ignition; Blackhorn 209 needs to be sealed up in order to properly combust. But even if you do manage to ignite it, you’ll have even more blow back, as as BH209 has ever so slightly higher pressures (that is how it gets higher velocities) than other substitutes.
So to use BH209 in your 700ML/MLS like I do, click here to get one of our sealed breech Remington 700 ML/MLS 209 modification kits.
Want to know more about Blackhorn 209? Visit the web site!
Copyright 2015, Badger Ridge Industries
Some range Time with my SEALED BREECH (BADGER RIDGE) 209 converted Remington 700MLS
Made it out to the range today... but forgot the battery on the charger for the good camera. Made due with the bad camera and took one shot with my cell phone.
Hope you enjoy watching a zero blow back video extravaganza... note that I leave the cover off the wind-age knob... I wouldn't recommend that with a non converted gun... (was walking in a new load with 240gr 44 cal XTP's, green sabots, and 120GR of Blackhorn209. I usually shoot 45 cal xtps, but I had these 44's I wanted to play with... strangely enough the POI was to the right of my usual .45 load... I was expecting a vertical change not a horizontal one).
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